A few days ago i mentioned this book and really had not planned to blog about it so quickly!
Over the past year iv had so many conversations about ‘the church’ that the last thing i thought i needed or wanted was a book about it. Some of these conversations have been with people who have all but given up on church.
Author Joshua Harris says “If you’ve written off the church, I dare you to read this book.”
I have not written off the Church but i have to admit that some of you, who have spoken to me directly or commented here, have discouraged me. I have listened to and also taken part in conversations that have attacked the church. Some perhaps, legitimate but some being just immature and petty.
I had almost believed the lie that 2 guys having a drink together and occasionally mentioning Jesus was “Church.” ‘Where 2 or 3 are gathered’ & ‘We are the Church’ and bla bla bla………..
“In the bestseller The Shack, the Jesus character explains that he doesn’t like religion and he doesn’t create institutions. The church we see is only a man-made system. The church I came to build, Jesus tells us, is ‘all about relationships and simply sharing your life.”
For the record, thats not entirely true! It may be closer to truth than some of the hogwash in that book but thats a whole other story…….
Currently, many of the most influential authors, speakers and “evangelical figures” are trying to re-model what ‘the Church’ should look like and sadly a lot of it is just the antidote to our disillusionment. The description in The Shack is sugar coated just enough to grip those of us with the smallest of complaints about Church!
Dan Kimball says “Jesus loves the church. Yes, the church is imperfect, and we have made mistakes. But if we love Jesus, then we will love what Jesus loves. This book moves us to a thrilling portrait and future of what the church that Jesus loves and builds can look like and the hope we can bring to the world.”
One of the main topics that will keep arising here over the next year will ‘hopefully’ be The Church, as we lead a small group and stumble closer to rediscovering The Church.
What do you think about The Church?
It’s all to easy to write off the church. Maybe we should all take a good look in the mirror before we do.
And, the church is just like an office, there’s good and bad people, motivated and lazy, those with pure motives and those with wicked motives. It’s difficult to get away from people.
I once heard the church described as like a net, a bunch of nothings tied together. That’s a great leveller!
We need to support each other, find common ground, stick to our principles daily and avoid the ego that often slips into our workplaces. If we remember who our boss is, that helps put stuff in perspective.
I love your analysis of two or three. It’s often the case that modern, trendy, urban people will assume that two or three is enough. It’s not. People need people. We can’t survive meeting in a pub or coffee shop once a week. We need established groups, we need community, we need to get involved in each others’ lives.
The trick is avoiding the inevitable slide towards The Establishment, which is what tends to happen when people begin to meet in larger groups. We do need structure and organisation in order to get things done and to make sure everyone is catered for.
Maybe a small groups/home groups-based church is the answer? What do you think?
Thanks for the comment Dawn
The Church we attend does place emphasis on home/small groups and up until this year i had passed that by but our attitude toward that has changed drastically and now we find ourselves leading one….
I think it compliments a large congregation and is the best way to live in community for those larger groups. You cannot achieve that with just attendance at meetings and services
Its very early in our small group journey but i have spoken to some who are veterans at it and i like what i hear and can see how it benefits
I think Northern Ireland has fallen into the trap of becoming obsessed with ritual when it comes to “church”. Many people are too focussed on “This is how we do things in OUR church” or “But we’ve never done that before” type attitudes that they are missing the point. Jesus didn’t come to start a religion.
If churches focused more on showing people God’s Love, his compassion, his mercy – maybe then effective ministry would given.
I’m not writing off “The Church” – but IMHO changes need to be made to purposefully and appropriately minister.
My most regular thought on this is in its simplest form a linguistic problem. In my book (sorry that was not meant to be a plug) I asked the same question of the word worship. In our current expression of faith we have defined worship as singing together (although often with a pithy reminder that this in fact is not worship but only a part) In the same way we have allowed the word church to become a meeting and a building to meet in whilst always, as with worship, mentioning that the church is the people not the building.
Words are only a small percentage of communication. Our behaviour, my behaviour is saying that church is the meeting on a Sunday and the building because we put a lot of our effort and finance into those things.
I do believe that 2/3 people meeting together over a pint and mentioning Jesus is church, but it is not enough. I do believe that 200 people singing and listening to a preacher is church but it is not enough either. Church is vast and undefinable, church exists where one of its members gives time to their friend, church exists when a group of people study the scriptures, church exists when we sit in pews and listen to a man in a collar teach us the Bible.
If church is indeed the people lets start there. What meetings, buildings, relationships, teachings etc. will enable most people to follow Christ and make an impact in their communities? From where I sit:
Jesus Centred, Bible teaching, Community, Mission, Culturally aware, loving the poor.
So…. looks like my comment is too long. Anyway. Would love to keep a discussion on this going.
What Dave said. The problem I think is primarily one of language – IE, we are desperate to name and define what happens when we are together and God is with us.
But the wind blows where it pleases, and I don’t think God can be so easily boxed.
So as Dave very rightly says, we’re fools to try to act as though only one form of worship, or one kind of institution, is The Right Way, because it’s demonstrably not true. God is as well-worshipped by sincere and devoted liturgy as he is by a megachurch filled with his children, as he is by our honest attempts to love the poor in our cities.
Having grown up in the church and been hurt by people putting institutional inflexibility before compassion, I once passionately embraced institution-bashing. Now I see there’s no point. There’s no alternative to us, the church, all of us, wherever we are, however we look. Jesus didn’t die to save my style, he died to save our souls and our world.
I also lead a small group in the same church Ally goes to. It has been brilliant to help provide the opportunity for members to study God’s Word and pray together in a safe environment where everyone can be themselves. Just as encouraging is seeing friendships and care for one another develop. Group members, many of whom are involved in other activities in church and thus are not a clique, look out for each other in church, and support those of our members going through difficult times. To me, this is what church is all about.
[...] conversations with too many people who seem disillusioned and frustrated with church. And reading blog posts about it too!! Good post [...]
Paul – I agree with you. Thankfully many of us are blessed to be apart of Churches that are quite large and often have more and more people attending each month. Whist this is great – it also prevents people from having the one-on-one accountability that is so crucial. In my church homegroups/small group is a focal point of “Doing Life together” – again related to the original topic here …”Church” isn’t just about the building or what happens on a Sunday … it’s about living life together daily.
So i don’t really know what to think of the church…this might be a strange question but if anyone could tell me what they think the church is for(its purpose in todays society) that would be awesome!
Worship and follow Jesus and encourage (not coerce) others to join us.
Love the poor
Support the broken
Speak for the silenced
Fight for justice
Show mercy
(Only the first of these is unique to us – but the others are essential to the first)
Years ago when I was in my local church choir I saw a few groups of people.
1) People who are religous day in day out and want to celebrate their faith
2) People who are religous but use Sunday service as a way to make themselves feel better, ignoring the church the rest of the time
3) People who are religous at times when they need reassurance (weddings, christenings, funerals)
4) People who go hoping to find faith, or at least feel something
But what do I think the church is for? I’m torn with an answer, the church itself – a symbol, the people within and the Vicar – their to offer advice/guidance/teaching and support unquestioningly to those who need/want it.
Hope that view doesnt offend anyone though.
Interesting. I struggle some times with things that I don’t like about my/the church but at the end of the day I think that it’s important that we remember that Jesus last command for us was to love one another. I guess if we do that and that all we strive to do in church comes from that then maybe we are starting to be on the right track……?
Yes i agree with what Dave said it just frustrates me when the definition doesnt fit the subject. As for loving each other i couldnt agree more. Sometimes i dont know what to think im a christian and yet i find myself saying things like “sometimes i can’t stand christians” I guess it starts with each individual…
OK – so this is a great discussion on how we all view “The Church” – its obvious many of us are concerned at how “Church” has become more of a word for the physicality element of buildings etc and that true meaning of it being a collective of people is often lost.
So here’s another can of worms to debate … is using the term “I’m a Christian” helpful – in relation the apparent trend that has seen “Church” in Northern Ireland become about ritual?
Do you think that people, as Jonny ^ said, have developed a phobia of “Christians” because of their habitual actions?
What are your views on calling yourself a “Follower of Christ” instead of Christian? Would this be a better example in our daily mission? Would it break the barrier of the rainbow guitar strap wearing tree-hugger image of “a Christian” – who to many people could never understand “their” issues/problems? (Sorry if anyone has just identified themselves in this statement!)
Simon, mmm this is already a popular enough thing i reckon…….
I just wonder how many words we need to drop out of our vocabulary because of the things that spring to mind when we use them…..
and it would be fair enough to say that people who have called themselves ‘followers of Christ’ are still the flawed and imperfect people that people who call themselves “Christians” are so how long before we wear that term out?
I don’t disagree with it by the way and in some contexts can see why it would be helpful to do this, its not the label that matters i guess
A friend recently said he was looking for:
Good Teaching
Good Fellowship
Good Worship
I know that there are many opinions on styles of teaching, fellowship & especially worship but i actually do think that when these 3 combine a lot more flows outwards from the individuals who make up the local body of a church.
Perhaps mixing up the styles or expressions of these, in one Church would be a good thing . . . probably facing much discussion and disagreement by various members, but if we seek the best for eachother, the whole body & not just for our own individual selves i think we may explode in many good & Christ glorifying ways.
SimonC
I think your question is very pertinent. And though I’m wary of rejecting labels because they’ve come to be unhelpful (all labels do; I think the healthy thing to do is reclaim them with grace), I do think its worth questioning the labels we so readily take upon ourselves and then, usually, end up feeling constricted by.
http://peterrollins.net/blog/?p=453 – a good blog by a very profound and provocatively faithful thinker who says that instead of ‘being a Christian’, he is ‘committed to the task of becoming a Christian’, which I think is a very good way of thinking about this wonderful, ludicrous calling we all have received, to be disciples.
‘I am a Christian’ implies that it’s a static state. ‘I am becoming a Christian’ implies ‘I am following’ – a constant process of walking further into God’s will, of constant choice and commitment to God rather than a badge we wear whilst going about ordinary business.
Gary.
I am amazed that your friend left out mission/evangelism and social transformation from his requirements of a good church. This is not meant to be a criticism of his three goals but it is increasingly unlikely to hear those three apart from the other two as mission and social action are the current buzz words of Christian publishing.
Although that said, it is perhaps a symptom of something more serious. When I read the New Testament (and much of the old ) teaching, fellowship and worship (music) are servants to the mission of the church. The “gatherings” of the church appeared to be refueling sessions, regular stop offs between missional endeavours in their daily lives for reenergising and re-envisioning of the people.
It is fascinating that we talk of church and focus on our gatherings when Acts rarely mentions the early churches gatherings.
This discussion has really caught my attention today.
Dave: I love Pete’s thoughts on this. “Becoming a Christian” and “Saved and Yet Being Saved” are great phrases in the definition of sanctification.
I have been throwing the “being saved” thing around in my head since that comment was posted, thanks David.
My experience growing up was always the unhealthy dose of “saved” and thats it………..thats all! Put your feet up!
Perhaps this attitude is more widespread than i thought & has continued to damage the Church
Dave, don’t you think that the ideas of “mission/evangelism and social transformation” have become to difficult for many in church?
Gary’s friend points out 3 key things but they tend to be things we receive and i agree that if these are put together then perhaps more should “flow outwards” from us in the form or mission/evangelism etc
People tend to see Church as a receiving thing though, which is where we usually get the ‘worship’ wars starting, due to me not getting my favourite style. Maybe if we were clearer on mission/evangelism & social transformation we wouldn’t be so selfish about some of the other details………..
By the way thanks for all the comments, some great thoughts
too difficult
not “to” difficult
grrrr
Ally.
I’m putting on my Mark Driscoll voice here.
Yes mission/evangelism and social transformation have become hard for many, but the reality is, it isn’t as hard as living in poverty and it isn’t as difficult as as an eternity without Jesus.
I’m not usually that direct
Dave
i agree with you Dave
Interesting that we see it as what Christians want from the church. We’re disappointed with style or content or whatever it is we ‘need’ to make us better worshippers or Christians. My gut response to this question is that we’re almost irrelevant.
Following Jesus isn’t about how those of us already in the club like things, not fundamentally*. How much time/effort/energy do we waste discussing whether our experience of The Church fits with our expectation? The litmus test should be how much the world loves (or hates) us.
Frankly, the word ‘meh’ was invented for describing how most of society feels towards what we do and who we are. If we can’t love each other why should anyone care about what we do?
How is it that the glory and the wonder and the grace of being church to one another and doing church for the world isn’t impressive, isn’t response-worthy, isn’t life-changingly attractive and appealing?
That the reaction is so lukewarm is messed up.
I love the church, in all its institutional nightmarish forms, with all its baggage, in all its mistakes, despite its good bits. It is easily the most durable reminder that God loves us, because he loves us, because he loves us and there’s nowt that’ll change any of that. And so it shouldn’t be perfect, because it’s a living reminder that God isn’t finished yet.
And that’s the real reason I love the church. Because in our weakness, our mediocrity, our failure we sit coccooned within that umbrella, holding the potential to change the world.
Web 2.0 might make slactivists of us all (is there a lazier way to fundraise than Movember?) and true the shrinking globe means we can all hitch our wagon to a cause and change lives. But the church is still that strange place where people with little in common come together, share lives, motivate and encourage one another to live lives that speak hope, and breathe life into the world.
Or it ought to be.
Like others I think there’s something in the way we use words. Technically, grammatically, properly ‘church’ is a noun. In our practice and our attitudes it should be both verb and adjective. And while it’s at it the word should be a synonym for love, truth, justice, mercy, grace and a whole load more besides.
Ahead of a PCC meeting that could suck my love for the institution out of me I’m glad to have had this thought ping round my head for today.
*that isn’t to say that we shouldn’t be interested in one another and resourcing one another and loving internally
(With appropriate apologies for length, I may have got slightly carried away)
Benjamin, your thoughts are greatly appreciated, this question is a huge deal & thanks for asking it
“How is it that the glory and the wonder and the grace of being church to one another and doing church for the world isn’t impressive, isn’t response-worthy, isn’t life-changingly attractive and appealing?”
Dave, you have a good point!
Personally i think that evangelism & being missional IS a key component of the Christian life, but that the Church gatherings on a Sunday morning should be primarily for believers, to teach & equip them as well as giving vent for expressions of worship in various forms.
Evangelism & missional living should just be the normal in our lives as we go about our day. And so i believe, (i can’t say why my friend left them off his list), that evangelism is not so much a ‘church’ thing, as it is a Christian thing.
And of course the Church will play a huge roll in supporting, equiping and spurring us forward in this.
People see that thing we do on a sunday morning. They see the people fall into their seats when theyd rather fall to sleep. They see people who are made to wear clothes they dont want to wear.They see the man on the street using out dated language to try and tell people that they are all lost and they even see people that look just like them but they wear a nice W.W.J.D bracelet and carefully avoid anyone who doesnt meet their high standards. BUT…. THEY DONT SEE JESUS!
Lovin this conversation! Thanks Ally for kicking it off.
So much to think about
The more I read this the more I find myself struggling to find language to express what I mean.
I say church and mean many different things. AN individual, a culture, an amorphous community and an institution.
Maybe that’s the beauty of the Church.
Id love this to continue guys so as i read the book il try to blog my thoughts & see if we can get this interaction
Dave, i know what you mean, our words do not quite seem to do it justice…….
As a theology professor of mine once told me. “Don’t dirty mouth the Church – you can’t talk about our Lord’s fiance that way and expect him not to care.” (see the Bride images in Revelation).
I think Church is bigger than all of us have been taught, but it includes what we’ve been taught. If that makes sense?
Great conversation!
Jonny I could introduce you to a number of people who have seen the reflection of Jesus in The Church. I could also introduce you to a number of people who have come back to a Church simply because God powerfully spoke to them “through the foolishness of preaching”.
In fact I see less Christians who meet the description you gave and more who just want to reach out to people where they are sharing with them what they have received from God.
There are always going to be muppets around the Church who are set in their ways and out of touch (remember Jesus died for them too, and sometimes we have even been those muppets). Like you said each of us should focus on making sure our lives and attitudes honour Christ and serve others with faith, hope and love. Also I think we should commit ourselse to each other as a Band of Brothers (and sisters) who will stay united for Christ and the Gospel, even when we disagree!
Okay i’m in danger of ranting on now, so i’l stop
I think it’s exciting to be a part of the Church today. Great questions our being asked! The answers our found, I believe, in Christ and his Word!
sorry i used the wrong ‘our’ for some reason lol